The Great Beta Dungeon Functionality Feedback Thread

[Kanchou]

Please include generic feedback regarding the new dungeon tools in this thread. Keep in mind that several features didn't make it for Beta 1 so their options in the UI are disabled.

Keep in mind:

1) Three important tools are missing: path, zone and stream. They will be separate tools from their overland equivalents to allow for specialized options and so it makes more sense in the Z-Order.

(bugs/small feature requests should still go in their forums).

[Korav]

One of the main things that I am looking to do with OWM is to make dungeon maps for online Virtual Table Tops, in my case, specifically Roll 20.

So based on that I feel that I am missing something or that the tools is not intuitive (it also frequently hangs). Basically I would like to be able to draw the outline of an area using the closed area, corridor tool, or wall and have the wall be attached to the grid. Both the corridor and closed area tool don't seem to work well with snap to grid and the wall tool doesn't automatically fill the floor in either when you complete a section.

I also hope that we will be able to export the svg data for the walls, because this can then be used to quickly generate "dynamic lighting walls" in Roll20.

I think the art assets are pretty good, hope that we will eventually be able to get additional style later as well (even as purchased addon would be fine by me).

[Kanchou]

Korav,

First, thank you for work with the dungeon tools. We have gotten very little feedback on them so we very much appreciate yours! And also please work with us to see if we can address that feedback.

I think the art assets are pretty good, hope that we will eventually be able to get additional style later as well (even as purchased addon would be fine by me).

That's great to hear! On the artwork:

1) Other World Mapper is completely open, so you are not dependent on us doing more art sets or having to buy our artwork. You can use any artwork you find/buy/etc just be mindful of that artwork's license/copyrights.

2) Right now you can drop the artwork into the OWM folder structure (I know that's lame) but before the final release we'll have in-program tools to select files and create your own art sets. For Beta, you can follow the same pattern as the artwork we provided in your OWM installation folder to add "external" artwork, but please asks us if you have any questions.

3) The sci-fi mini dungeon set was already bonus artwork that we hadn't promised with the campaign, so we can't promise any more dungeon artwork with the first release. However, we'll have add-on artwork afterwards that you could buy (and again, remember point 1)

One of the main things that I am looking to do with OWM is to make dungeon maps for online Virtual Table Tops, in my case, specifically Roll 20.

So based on that I feel that I am missing something or that the tools is not intuitive (it also frequently hangs). Basically I would like to be able to draw the outline of an area using the closed area, corridor tool, or wall and have the wall be attached to the grid. Both the corridor and closed area tool don't seem to work well with snap to grid and the wall tool doesn't automatically fill the floor in either when you complete a section.

I also hope that we will be able to export the svg data for the walls, because this can then be used to quickly generate "dynamic lighting walls" in Roll20.

I think the functional issues (not the hangs) have to do more with us not having had the chance to do good demo videos/documentation. Hopefully the upcoming dev log will help, and Beta 2 should come with a new PDF and updated tutorial window hints.

Quick rundown:

1) The wall tool is only meant for internal walls, so it won't do a floor. They are a way to visually divide a closed area without having to specify new floor.
I think what you are trying to do you can do with the closed area tool set to the "line mode" in the tool options at the top.

2) The closed area tool doesn't snap to the grid when doing shapes, we'll work on that for the next release. However, in line mode it should be snapping. Can you tell us a bit more about the issue you are having?

3) All objects should export to SVG to as close as we can make an SVG file look to the OWM map. Is your map not exporting the walls to svg?

I mentioned it in the other thread, but please send us any resources that may help us: your .owm file, a sketch/sample of the map you are trying to make with OWM.

Thank you again!!

- Alejandro

[Korav]

Thank you for the response.

1) I knew I was missing something, and indeed setting the tool to line mode was exactly what I was looking for. It does indeed do exactly what I was looking for and worked very well.

2) Having the closed area tool snap to grid properly will be very helpful, will make it quick and easy then to do quick rooms then using the line tool to make the remaining structures. The corridor tool still feels strange with snap to grid as well, it also it what seems to cause my hanging issue (will talk about it in the other thread).

3) I need to look at this more, it seems that information is sent out, but it isn't in the format expected for the Roll20 Parser, it's something I need to look at a bit more and is likely not on your side.

One additional comment, the stairs tool feel a bit under developed, or maybe need some tweaking. It seems having a transparency mode for it allowing the outlining/shadow effects give the look of stairs using the underlying textures. In it's current state it ends up being rather jarring transition between textured floors and untextured stairs.

[Kanchou]

Thank you for the response.
1) I knew I was missing something, and indeed setting the tool to line mode was exactly what I was looking for. It does indeed do exactly what I was looking for and worked very well.

Excellent!

2) Having the closed area tool snap to grid properly will be very helpful, will make it quick and easy then to do quick rooms then using the line tool to make the remaining structures. The corridor tool still feels strange with snap to grid as well, it also it what seems to cause my hanging issue (will talk about it in the other thread).

Will fix the closed area snap and look into the corridor snap, maybe add options to its behavior.

3) I need to look at this more, it seems that information is sent out, but it isn't in the format expected for the Roll20 Parser, it's something I need to look at a bit more and is likely not on your side.

Let us know if there is anything we can do from our side and we'll be happy to do it to allow compatibility. If it's very specific we can always add a "create Roll20 compatibility svg" setting/option in the export window.

One additional comment, the stairs tool feel a bit under developed, or maybe need some tweaking. It seems having a transparency mode for it allowing the outlining/shadow effects give the look of stairs using the underlying textures. In it's current state it ends up being rather jarring transition between textured floors and untextured stairs.

Stairs are a lot under developed. Only a small portion of their functionality made it to Beta 1.

Thank you!!

- Alejandro

[orangebug]

Thanks for the great tool, here's some suggestions after using it for a few hours:

Zoom needs to zoom out farther than 25%. I'm working on a top-down map of the new Castle Ravenloft (Curse of Strahd), and my image is 7140px by 5040px (70px squares for Roll20). At 25% I am still scrolling around to see everything. Speaking of scrolling, Shift+Scroll Wheel is a common shortcut to scroll left/right.

Need to utilize modifier keys to simplify editing. In most Vector editing programs, the Control key is used in conjunction with a click to add something, and the Alt key is used in conjunction with a click to remove something.
For example, the point editor: Ctrl+Click could add a point to a shape, Alt+Click could remove a point from a shape.
Shift of course is used to select multiple items. You can add further functionality with combinations like Alt+Shift+Click to remove an item from a selection, that way you don't accidentally deselect one item while trying to add another to your selection.

Layers. I assume (haven't scoured the entire forums yet), that since you have a layers window at all that you intend to add functionality for grouping items into layers/reordering/etc?

Having a different tool for a closed area and a wall doesn't seem intuitive to me. Seems like if you created a closed shape with the walls tool, that it should then turn into a closed area (and therefore be able to select a fill for it). Maybe rename them to something like Exterior Wall, and Interior Wall/Room?

Also, Hi Korav! Fancy meeting you here!

[Kanchou]

Thanks for the great tool, here's some suggestions after using it for a few hours:

Thank you! And welcome to the beta! Our plan is to continue improving Other World mapper with the help of our users, so we very much appreciate the feedback!

Zoom needs to zoom out farther than 25%. I'm working on a top-down map of the new Castle Ravenloft (Curse of Strahd), and my image is 7140px by 5040px (70px squares for Roll20). At 25% I am still scrolling around to see everything.

Will open up the zoom out range. Thank you!

Speaking of scrolling, Shift+Scroll Wheel is a common shortcut to scroll left/right.

There was another request for the same. Right now shift+scroll is tied up with the fractal segment regeneration, so for Beta 3 we are adding ctrl+shift+scroll as the horizontal scroll. It's kind of weird, but hopefully it will work out.

Need to utilize modifier keys to simplify editing. In most Vector editing programs, the Control key is used in conjunction with a click to add something, and the Alt key is used in conjunction with a click to remove something.
For example, the point editor: Ctrl+Click could add a point to a shape, Alt+Click could remove a point from a shape.
Shift of course is used to select multiple items. You can add further functionality with combinations like Alt+Shift+Click to remove an item from a selection, that way you don't accidentally deselect one item while trying to add another to your selection.

We'll add editing modifiers. Thank you!

Layers. I assume (haven't scoured the entire forums yet), that since you have a layers window at all that you intend to add functionality for grouping items into layers/reordering/etc?

With the layers window right now you can
a) Double click on an item to center the map on the item
b) Drag up/down to change the z- order of the item within the same item type.
c) Select items or whole categories (all lakes, all features, all items in a landmass, etc).

The layers reflect the order of the items in the map (i.e. regions under lakes, etc), long term we want to add more functionality (like showing color codes for grouped items), but additional features to the layers would come as (free) updates/patches after V1.0.

Having a different tool for a closed area and a wall doesn't seem intuitive to me. Seems like if you created a closed shape with the walls tool, that it should then turn into a closed area (and therefore be able to select a fill for it). Maybe rename them to something like Exterior Wall, and Interior Wall/Room?

We'll look into the name of the tools. At least renaming "wall" to "interior wall" makes a lot of sense.

- Alejandro

[orangebug]

Thanks for the quick reply!

What I would be looking for in Layers is the ability to group sets of items, shift them around the z-order, and selectively hide them. For instance, if I'm working on a multi-level dungeon/building, I would prefer to work out of the same file, so that I can make sure that the stairs, balconies, and other features all line up with each other. Each level of the dungeon would be in it's own layer group, so I can turn them off when I'm working on another layer. I would also have sub-groups for things like dungeon decor, doors, and DM-Only things like traps, room numbers, and labels.

I do see that you have a linking feature, which I'll definitely use on overland maps.

[Kanchou]

Thanks for the quick reply!

What I would be looking for in Layers is the ability to group sets of items, shift them around the z-order, and selectively hide them. For instance, if I'm working on a multi-level dungeon/building, I would prefer to work out of the same file, so that I can make sure that the stairs, balconies, and other features all line up with each other. Each level of the dungeon would be in it's own layer group, so I can turn them off when I'm working on another layer. I would also have sub-groups for things like dungeon decor, doors, and DM-Only things like traps, room numbers, and labels.

I do see that you have a linking feature, which I'll definitely use on overland maps.

Sorry for the late reply!
I understand what you mean now and it makes sense. The conflict there is that with our layers showing the overall z-order of items, that type of grouping would conflict. For instance, zones are drawn under pools, which in turn are drawn under features.If you could group the zone and the feature, the layer window would show the z-order incorrectly because the pool is really between the other two.

We've been thinking of/talking about alternatives, but keep in mind two things:

1) You could create two overlapping "landmasses" and add all the map items for floor 1 to one, and floor 2 to the other. I know this is not a perfect solution, but it may help.

2) There is additional functionality that is part of the Kickstarter but it's not ready yet (and since it's not part of the release yet we don't discuss it on the website) that is "multiple map views." The idea is you could have multiple maps in one. You could swap between the map views and add different items to each (so like overall layers). However, you could also add items so that they exist in both views so that when you add to one view the same item appears in the other (and change in tandem).
So, in the battlemap/dungeon case, say you have a building with multiple floors, you could create two views. All the outside stuff (trees, paths, etc) could be the same and the exterior wall could be the same, but you could add all the floor 2 stuff to the second view.

That functionality is behind schedule so I'm not sure when we'll include it with a release, but it is part of the Kickstarter and what will be there with V1.0 (or at least with one of the functionality updates after V1.0).

Thank you!!!

- Alejandro

[orangebug]

Ok,

So I created a landmass on top of everything on my Main Floor map. I'm not sure how to change an item's parent within the Z-order. The help file didn't seem to indicate how.

However I ran into a problem before I could attempt that, when you have a Landmass shape placed on top of other objects (I'm unable to change the z-order of the landmass), even when that landmass is hidden, I'm unable to select or move items underneath that landmass. If landmasses are intended to be on the lowest layer possible, then perhaps they should always be created below other items.

Even when creating a small landmass in the corner, I was unable to determine how to parent previously drawn items to that landmass.

P.S.
One other bit of feedback: When moving areas around that I've drawn on the grid, the areas snap along the outer edge of the wall, instead of on the points of the map. This means that if I move an area after drawing it on the grid, I have to manually nudge all the points back onto the grid. Maybe have an option to snap on area points, instead of the edges of the shape?