OWM2 Request: OWM 3D

Development feedback on user interface, features and general design.

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Big Mac
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OWM2 Request: OWM 3D

Post by Big Mac » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:01 pm

I thought about writing this in Gareth_w's Feature Requests?, but I really do not think it fits into anything that could be done with the original Other World Mapper program. I think it might be something that needs a second Kickstarter. (And it might be something that couldn't be done for a while, because of requirements to support the current OWM, remove any bugs and add in the sort of features that software should have.)

I've been following the work of Anna Meyer for years (it was her who pointed me at Other World Mapper) and one of the things that has made her Greyhawk map so awesome is that she made it in 3D. You can't really notice it so much, from her top down views, but she occasionally shows fans a side-on view.

Recently she has been working with something called World Machine. It is an awesome program, but it is also a complicated program.

If Other World Mapper can make 2D cartography easier for people, I'm figuring that the next generation of Other World Mapper could look into doing the same sort of thing with 3D cartography. If the OWM team could do that, they could bring the advantages of 3D maps into the reach of people who are less good at cartography software and give a lot of people the ability to express their creativity.

The big advantages of 3D cartography (over 2D cartography) are:
  • Mountains can be given real height (rather than just being symbols on a 2D map),
  • Valleys and lakes can cut into the landscape (meaning that things that don't show up so well on 2D maps, like slopes can actually be included on maps),
  • Different "flat" locations on a continent or an island can all have different heights above sea level (which might help someone building a world work out what sort of trees and plants to put onto the lowlands and highlands),
  • Rivers can be made to flow downhill from the mountains, though lakes to the sea.
I think it is easy for a novice cartographer to accidentally create a broken landscape, where a river is flowing uphill, at some point, but if a third dimension is added, it allows you to push the inner parts of a continent further above sea level and the parts near the coast further down towards sea level.

OWM version 1 is already working towards having things like rivers and lakes that interact and work together. I think that if OWM could eventually migrate to having a third dimension in the way it creates maps, it would be possible for lakes to automatically turn into scooped out areas of the land and for rivers to automatically turn into thin grooves cut into the land. Given the cool stuff the OWN team already does, I think that you have the skills to do this sort of thing, even though I know it isn't part of the current plan. I do realise that it would probably require every single feature of OWM to be reworked so that the 2D interaction was replaced with 3D interaction.

Mountains could maybe automatically throw up a number of random peaks (with height) but the zoom in ability could maybe allow users to pull the peaks around a bit to allow someone to make a shape of mountains that fitted in with their vision (like a curved range of mountains that they call "The Horseshoe Mountains").

As well as making the rivers "work", a 3D map would also allow someone to navigate over their map and work out how high every city, town, village or other community was above sea level. Being able to use a map to get that sort of data back could be useful for world building.

Things like roads would probably be a bit easier, as they sit on the land. But if someone is trying to design land that goes up, with some hills and cliffs, a road might actually need to snake about a bit. On the zoomed out scale, that might not show up so much, but if people can zoom in, a road that follows the most shallow gradient might have a more realistic feel to it.

And if somebody can manipulate OWM's tools to create a situation where features like mountains, valleys and rivers create an obstacle and there is only one logical place where something like a bridge can go, it can help create a scenario where a critter like a troll has gained control of a bridge and is cutting off the route between two communities.

Anyhoo, I thought I would drop the idea and see if anyone else would want Other World Mapper to eventually move in this direction. :)
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
(A Spelljammer fan hoping to user Other World Mapper to make lots of maps of planets.)
You can see more of me over at The Piazza campaign settings forums

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Re: OWM2 Request: OWM 3D

Post by Kanchou » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:08 pm

Anna talked to us about similar ideas a few months back. It's definitely something we would love to do and it was part of the original scope of OWM, before we reduced the scope to something that could realistically fund for a first time Kickstarter creator.

There are two possibilities, we could go full 3D, which is what your suggested. Or we could have a "2.5D" approach where things like mountains and other terrain (our regions) can be generated as 3D terrain, but the map is still only an above view.

The full 3D approach is something we wouldn't be able to explore before the end of 2016, but we would love to hear from our backers to see how many of you would be interested on this type of functionality, so please reply to this thread with your thoughts!

- Alejandro
Alejandro S. Canosa
Three Minds Software

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Re: OWM2 Request: OWM 3D

Post by stefanstr » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:23 am

I would be interested in a faux-3D view. I.e., I would like to work on my maps in 2D, but if the end result can feel like it is 3D without me having to actually work on the 3D stuff, I am all for it.

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Re: OWM2 Request: OWM 3D

Post by unklStewy » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:12 pm

Good Evening,

I like where Mac is going with this idea and I like the 2.5D idea as well.

Although this does give me an idea.... I want to draw a land mass map in OWM and export via SVG.

Import that SVG into Solidworks and then extrude the landmass and elevations as a substitute...

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Re: OWM2 Request: OWM 3D

Post by unklStewy » Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:16 pm

Alejandro,

Perhaps dropping a poll on the facebook page or a poll in the backers section of the forums if you want to limit the scope of responses to backers.

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Re: OWM2 Request: OWM 3D

Post by Big Mac » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:18 pm

Kanchou wrote:Anna talked to us about similar ideas a few months back. It's definitely something we would love to do and it was part of the original scope of OWM, before we reduced the scope to something that could realistically fund for a first time Kickstarter creator.
That's a great decision. All these things take time to code and time is money and all that. The more "cool stuff™" that you add to OWM the more money you need the backers to put in and the longer it takes you to deliver people a Beta Version that works. Reducing the scope makes it easier to give us lot something cool that we can start using. (And then you can sell that thing to bring in more users that will fund extra "cool stuff™".)
Kanchou wrote:There are two possibilities, we could go full 3D, which is what your suggested. Or we could have a "2.5D" approach where things like mountains and other terrain (our regions) can be generated as 3D terrain, but the map is still only an above view.

The full 3D approach is something we wouldn't be able to explore before the end of 2016, but we would love to hear from our backers to see how many of you would be interested on this type of functionality, so please reply to this thread with your thoughts!
I like the 2.5D concept. If you can fake the sort of look that Anna Meyer puts onto her 3D map of Greyhawk and her 3D map of The Southlands, then that would be very useful to a lot of people. I think that full 3D capability would still be useful, but if version 2 of OWM could do 2.5D that would already be a revolutionary advance that would help people.

I've got a lot of 2D stuff to learn. I think that if could eventually have a 2.5D version that would allow me to step beyond the 2D and make maps that look a lot nicer than 2D maps. And then I would be a lot more prepared for a 3D version.

If people can zoom into your maps, then a 3D OWM version (which might need to be OWM3, if you are going to do 2.5D first) could allow people to build the sort of terrain that appears in games like World of Warcraft. The other advantage of 3D mapping would be that people might be able to use it to design building maps that have floors stacked on top of each other and vertical features, like staircases, that fit logically between one floor and the next.

If that is a second or third Kickstarter down the line, but it is something that might eventually come my way, I would be very happy to see it.
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
(A Spelljammer fan hoping to user Other World Mapper to make lots of maps of planets.)
You can see more of me over at The Piazza campaign settings forums

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Re: OWM2 Request: OWM 3D

Post by Anna B Meyer » Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:05 am

To add a third dimension to OWM would be fantastic!
But to generate 3D terrain is a whole science in it itself and require an application dedicated for just that to achieve good results. So I think that is more than what I want to see in OWM.
What I would love to have in OWM would be the possibility to import heighthields (bitmap grayscale images) with an texture, and then use that as a canvas to place symbols, color overlays, lines etc. Simple rendering capabilities combined with a custom camera angles and isometric view and I'm in heaven! :)
I know this is hard to do, but not impossible. To paint in anything but top down view is probably really hard, because very few applications support this feature. So top-down paint mode like usual and then be able to look at and save views from other angles would be fantastic.
With features like this you could place 2D or 3D symbols, text, borders, roads and more on a 3D terrain of your choice. The 3D terrain areas you either have to create yourself in another application or get from somewhere else, but when you have it you can make a map of out to suit your game.

To create great looking 3D terrain easy will be possible, but are a some years away. It will require a bit more hardware than the average user are willing to invest in, and a new generation of software. But I have no doubts about it being available, you will all be able to create your dream worlds in half a decade or so... ;)

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Re: OWM2 Request: OWM 3D

Post by Kanchou » Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:07 pm

Anna B Meyer wrote:To add a third dimension to OWM would be fantastic!
But to generate 3D terrain is a whole science in it itself and require an application dedicated for just that to achieve good results. So I think that is more than what I want to see in OWM.

To create great looking 3D terrain easy will be possible, but are a some years away. It will require a bit more hardware than the average user are willing to invest in, and a new generation of software. But I have no doubts about it being available, you will all be able to create your dream worlds in half a decade or so... ;)
That was our thought about the full 3D as well, and why the "2.5D" is attractive. Hardware limitations for most people, and like you mentioned to us before, we would be looking at licensing the engine for full 3D not trying to create from the ground up. We built OWM's 2D engine ourselves to not fall into the same traps/issues that other software has, and that was hard enough ;).
And it's also the case that most people create illustration or cartography style maps, not full world terrain generation, so it would be for a narrower audience.
Anna B Meyer wrote: What I would love to have in OWM would be the possibility to import heighthields (bitmap grayscale images) with an texture, and then use that as a canvas to place symbols, color overlays, lines etc. Simple rendering capabilities combined with a custom camera angles and isometric view and I'm in heaven! :)
I know this is hard to do, but not impossible. To paint in anything but top down view is probably really hard, because very few applications support this feature. So top-down paint mode like usual and then be able to look at and save views from other angles would be fantastic.
With features like this you could place 2D or 3D symbols, text, borders, roads and more on a 3D terrain of your choice. The 3D terrain areas you either have to create yourself in another application or get from somewhere else, but when you have it you can make a map of out to suit your game.
That fits really well with the idea of doing partial 3D. So your idea would be to use the height fields and render/rasterize the landmass from the information contain within them? (and in multiple angles/views?).

- Alejandro
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Re: OWM2 Request: OWM 3D

Post by Anna B Meyer » Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:01 am

From my use of OWM I can tell that great thinking is underway in this area as well as many others, great work Alejandro and team!

Top down views of height maps (2.5D) is great I and something to try and include in a future version, when the core functions are in place.

Most of the end gains with 2.5D can be had with layers and a few simple blend modes. If you can import a color layer and a shadow layer (both are standard JPG or TIFF images) and the are able to set the shadow layers blend mode to Multiply. All that is needed it to be able to tweak the Brightness and Contrast a bit and you will have a perfect looking top-down 3D map. Using this method makes it possible to paint on the color layer and keep the shading in place.

Then in a future update add the height map import to be able to work with more than the top down view. But that is a whole new set of functions that might be outside the scope of OWM. With layers and a few basic blend modes you can have most of the features in order to create fantastic looking maps, and then be able to use all the standard features on it!

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Re: OWM2 Request: OWM 3D

Post by unklStewy » Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:32 am

Good Morning,

I'm not entirely sure if this is a direction you would consider going but there are a whole slew of terrain maps available from NASA's SRTM (Shuttle Radar Topography Mission) that can be used as terrain seeds. The information is even distributed under an open license. I use it in my day job to do radio wave propagation studies for Wireless Wide Area Networks. The same data can be interpolated to create fantasy map height files.. They would also have the added benefit of being realistic because they are captured from real earth geography. It uses the earth grid layout system to define which slice of Earth you are looking at.. The HGT files can be imported to the reader and exported as height maps in x-ray, elevation grayscale, and color maps as .tiff or some other format ..

http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/srtm/

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