Immediate Rasterizing vs. Delayed Render

[unklStewy]

Good Morning,

So here I am this morning about a hour and a half into my new map, a scale size New American Nations, and I start to see the downsides of immediate rasterization of the vector data. I understand that in Alpha 2 you have made some improvements in performance and I hope that helps. My intent is to see what if any improvement there would be in delaying rendering the rasterized data until a user initiated event. Displaying and holding the vector data in memory should be less intensive than rendering or reloading the bitmaps after every operation.

I did notice that hiding the parent layer (New American Nations) allowed the program to regain some resources, they downside is that once add my regions they disappear until I re-enable the parent landmass. I can double check it but if I need to make point edits the application crawls to a stop ..

I can attach a copy of the .owm file and the folder resources. Maybe I am doing something wrong.

Casey

[Kanchou]

Casey,

We made a lot of improvements in alpha 2 (not yet released). There was a lot of re-rendering being done that wasn't necessary, we meant to have that as part of Alpha 1 but it didn't make it.

Also, have you change the preview mode to "Outline"? (it's equivalent to the 'wireframe" mode in 3D design).

If you don't mind attaching the file I'd love to do a comparison between Alpha 1 and our current build towards Alpha 2.

Thank you!!

- Alejandro

[unklStewy]

Alejandro,

I have tried the Preview: Outline mode and it didn't seem to do anything visually but i will try to see what improvements it makes in drawing later today.

As you have requested i am going to link to a .zip copy of my OWM Revolution folder. There is a bitmap in the folder that you will need to link to the Canvas Background image. This is the image I have been using as my pilot document.

That brings me to another suggestion I will post in the small feature requests area but would it not be easier if such materials were linked as relative paths to the project file. That would make sharing a project more simple.

http://www.wisterian.net/media/maps/Revolution.zip


Casey

Edit #1: Added link to OWM .Zip File -- Edit #2: Added a Screenshot from dxdiag.exe for system spec information.

[Kanchou]

Alejandro,

I have tried the Preview: Outline mode and it didn't seem to do anything visually but i will try to see what improvements it makes in drawing later today.

Preview outline mode makes it so that only the outline of shapes is drawn while editing points, scaling, etc. and significantly improves speed because the entire shape is not rasterized until the editing is finished (i.e. until you stop dragging a point).

In hindsight we should have made that the default setting!

Still, I was able to try your map and rasterization as you edit runs a lot smoother with our current build due to our changes to avoid updating areas that don't need updating.
Hoping to have Alpha V2 in your hands before the end of June.

- Alejandro

[Kanchou]

Casey,

Another thing we noticed is that the continent is being created with a very high fractal factor yet having "click points"/control points very close to each other. The continent in your map has 150k points, many of which are virtual overlaps. Those points don't add to the shape but they make the program run slower.

For now, we are reducing the default fractal factor to a lower number (you can still set it to higher in the pen settings). Long term we are trying to think of a way to auto simplify redundant points, or have a setting to automatically set the fractal factor based on the distance between points.

However, I've been using your map as a benchmark for the upcoming 0.7.2 release and I don't have any performance issues running with my older AM2+ CPU (vs. very slow performance with the 0.7.1).

- Alejandro

[unklStewy]

Casey,

1) Another thing we noticed is that the continent is being created with a very high fractal factor yet having "click points"/control points very close to each other. The continent in your map has 150k points, many of which are virtual overlaps. Those points don't add to the shape but they make the program run slower.

2) For now, we are reducing the default fractal factor to a lower number (you can still set it to higher in the pen settings). Long term we are trying to think of a way to auto simplify redundant points, or have a setting to automatically set the fractal factor based on the distance between points.

3) However, I've been using your map as a benchmark for the upcoming 0.7.2 release and I don't have any performance issues running with my older AM2+ CPU (vs. very slow performance with the 0.7.1).

- Alejandro

Alejandro,

Thanks for the update, I apologize for my late response but we have entered our busy season in the security and surveillance industry. It seems like no one wants to install CCTV systems in the dead of winter.. Go Figure.

1) At any rate thank you very much for telling me what I was doing wrong.
Question: If I select the line in on the current continent and lower the fractal rate will that fix some of the problems or should I just start a new map with a much lower fractal rate?

2) I can see where that would be a positive improvement. Thank you for the update on fractal default settings.
As for redundant points perhaps you might find something in an anti-aliasing algorithm, utilizing it to auto-smooth points that are redundant or have overlapping coordinates. Or a "trainer" popup that will monitor continuous counts of a shape object and suggest lowering the settings before continuing and if they agree have it retroactively adjust the segments that have already been drawn.

3a) Feel free to use it to break anything you like... I'm keeping split copies of the file in my dropbox folder each time I send a map in for 'errors' human or otherwise. If you like I can share the folder with you and your team.

3b) IT'S A BEAST!!! .. I have a few of these old machines laying around the shop doing various tasks like holding down important office furniture and solitaire.. -JK- Most of them are running older versions of Software that isn't made or maintained any longer and some of them run GIS software for terrain data and wireless environment mapping.

Best Regards,
Casey Annis

[Kanchou]

Alejandro,

Thanks for the update, I apologize for my late response but we have entered our busy season in the security and surveillance industry. It seems like no one wants to install CCTV systems in the dead of winter.. Go Figure.

1) At any rate thank you very much for telling me what I was doing wrong.
Question: If I select the line in on the current continent and lower the fractal rate will that fix some of the problems or should I just start a new map with a much lower fractal rate?

2) I can see where that would be a positive improvement. Thank you for the update on fractal default settings.
As for redundant points perhaps you might find something in an anti-aliasing algorithm, utilizing it to auto-smooth points that are redundant or have overlapping coordinates. Or a "trainer" popup that will monitor continuous counts of a shape object and suggest lowering the settings before continuing and if they agree have it retroactively adjust the segments that have already been drawn.

3a) Feel free to use it to break anything you like... I'm keeping split copies of the file in my dropbox folder each time I send a map in for 'errors' human or otherwise. If you like I can share the folder with you and your team.

3b) IT'S A BEAST!!! .. I have a few of these old machines laying around the shop doing various tasks like holding down important office furniture and solitaire.. -JK- Most of them are running older versions of Software that isn't made or maintained any longer and some of them run GIS software for terrain data and wireless environment mapping.

Best Regards,
Casey Annis

Casey,

No need to apologize. We appreciate all your great feedback! It's been pretty crazy for us too (alpha 2 + our contract work).
I wonder why everyone wants to install CCTV systems in the summer??

1) I'm adding a new tool right now for Alpha 2 (which we are so very close to release) to simplify paths (with a user configurable setting for how "aggressive" it should be). I tried with your map and it reduced it from 150k points to closer to 15k, keeping basically the same shape and detail.
That way you won't have to start your map anew, and the tool will be there for anyone to use.
Side note: you can select segments right now but there's nothing you can do with them. Eventually, we'll have the option to "re-roll" a segment with different fractal settings.

2) That's pretty much what I implemented . I'm thinking of having it automatically run that algorithm when you close a shape (but not with an aggressive value), we'll make a call on that as a team before alpha 2.

3a) That would be great! We're using maps from our backers as benchmarks to see where we need to improve (since everyone uses the program differently and sees different issues).

3b) It's my main development machine ;P. I intentionally do the OWM coding with that older machine (granted, memory is maxed at 8GB) to keep the OWM engine as something that will work even with older machines.

Thank you!!

- Alejandro

[Lubrol88800]

This discussion of the point/fractal density certainly explains my map issues: I know that the point count has to be quite high since I was trying to duplicate the outlines I had on the bitmap. It was in trying to manually remove points that the system kept crashing: probably to confused with overlapping and seemingly duplicate points. Even running in outline mode with every other shape and feature turned off only helps so much. And trying to create a basically straight line is very tough if you can't reduce the point count/fractal density somehow. Still, yet, and even: nice nice work already.

Looking forward to V2.

[unklStewy]

Lubrol,

Yeah, apparently we are very fond of vector points you and I. I had 150k in my outline of the U.S. before it started choking. Alejandro seems to think they have wrangled some of the performance bugs so 0.7.2 should be better at just about everything.

Casey

[Lubrol88800]

A problem probably more related to trying to more or less follow a predetermined outline. We I to start the world maps again form scratch, I suspect the issue would go away. But I've so much already written about, drawn and shared, that not getting at least reasonable close is tough.

Good luck with the New America Nation mapping.