Mac Beta Feedback

Development feedback on user interface, features and general design.

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stefanstr
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:25 pm

Mac Beta Feedback

Post by stefanstr » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:54 am

Hey team.

Finally, a Mac beta! Which means I'm back. A pity it's at a period in my life when I have so little free time for hobbies so I won't be able to dive into OWM as much as I'd like to. Some initial feedback though:

1) do you really need an installer on the Mac? The typical "Mac" way is to have an app bundle that you simply drag and drop to the Applications folder. (Unless OWM needs to install some libraries or whatever in which case it's fine of course.)
2) do you have plans for including OWM in the Mac App Store once it's ready? It would give you some free publicity and make it easier to manage versions/updates - but I don't know if the sandboxed environment you need to publish to the App Store is something you can abide by.
3) I'm also getting the "debugging check failed" error as another user mentioned and I think I know what the problem is: it mentions the path /Users/alejandro so it's obvious you hard-coded your user folder somewhere in the debugging tools or whatever you're using. The first time I got it was when I tried to create a new map with Command+N.
4) Clicking "delete/backspace" doesn't delete selected objects. Is that intentional? Same with Cmd+Z for Undo.
5) Not necessarily Mac-specific but I can't figure out how to connect corridors to rooms in the dungeon tool?
6) When I closed a new unsaved map and chose not to save it, OWM crashed on me.
7) "New Map from Template" doesn't do anything when chosen from the initial dialog box. Works when selected from the menu.
8) I would expect trackpad gestures to work - currently they don't. (Pinch to zoom and two-finger rotate at the minimum.)
9) Not Mac-related but how do I know which version of OWM I have? I was a Kickstarter backer and I have no idea if I have all the artwork or if I'd need to purchase some expansions to have it all. Maybe this is something you might integrate with the app and make it easier to find and purchase stuff from the app itself.
10) I feel that the artwork symbols, landmass type previews, etc., are too big and too few of them fit in the menu on the right. Not sure what is the standard on Windows but I only see 2.5 symbols horizontally and 2 symbols vertically in the standard menu size.
11) I ran into an issue with the mercator transverse projection. While switching to it from the default, it visually loses a landmass on a map with two landmasses. It's still there in the object list but becomes invisible. The problem persists
12) The app sometimes freezes when it gets too much input too quickly but I couldn't pin-point if there's a specific thing that triggers this.
13) The app always freezes for me when trying to complete a landmass with a right-click when in the "fit-to-screen" view.

That's all I have for now.

stefanstr
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Re: Mac Beta Feedback

Post by stefanstr » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:24 am

After some more testing with projections: Mercator Transverse doesn't work at all, doing all kinds of wanky stuff. The other projections seem to be fixed and work well with one exception: creating a landmass over a pole in a pole-centered projection loses that landmass when switching to another projection. So OWM is not compatible with Antarctica right now which is a pity.

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Kanchou
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Re: Mac Beta Feedback

Post by Kanchou » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:45 pm

stefanstr wrote: 1) do you really need an installer on the Mac? The typical "Mac" way is to have an app bundle that you simply drag and drop to the Applications folder. (Unless OWM needs to install some libraries or whatever in which case it's fine of course.)
That's all I have for now.
We'll be going through the feedback Monday but I'm curious about this first one. That was our thought as well, but how do we distribute the darn thing? If I upload the .app bundle (which is a folder) it gets zipped up and then OSX says our signature is no longer value and won't run the app.

That was what delayed our release Friday while we figured out how to create a package installer.

Thank you!

- Alejandro
Alejandro S. Canosa
Three Minds Software

stefanstr
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Re: Mac Beta Feedback

Post by stefanstr » Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:34 pm

Kanchou wrote:
stefanstr wrote: 1) do you really need an installer on the Mac? The typical "Mac" way is to have an app bundle that you simply drag and drop to the Applications folder. (Unless OWM needs to install some libraries or whatever in which case it's fine of course.)
That's all I have for now.
We'll be going through the feedback Monday but I'm curious about this first one. That was our thought as well, but how do we distribute the darn thing? If I upload the .app bundle (which is a folder) it gets zipped up and then OSX says our signature is no longer value and won't run the app.

That was what delayed our release Friday while we figured out how to create a package installer.

Thank you!

- Alejandro
Typically, you distribute apps as disk images (.dmg), not .zip. Are you referring to difficulties with Gatekeeper or does zipping the app somehow invalidate the dev signature?

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Kanchou
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Re: Mac Beta Feedback

Post by Kanchou » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:07 pm

stefanstr wrote:Typically, you distribute apps as disk images (.dmg), not .zip. Are you referring to difficulties with Gatekeeper or does zipping the app somehow invalidate the dev signature?
Thank you!

Gatekeeper won't run the app if it gets downloaded zipped. So, it's fine with the app standalone (tried in a few machines), but if we zip it up once it gets downloaded Gatekeeper won't run it after we drag it out of the compressed file because it says it can't validate the signature. It's odd, maybe I'm missing something.

I'll look at creating a .dmg file if we can apply a signature to it.

The installer literally does nothing but copying the .app folder to the applications directory. It's not installing any dependencies since we linked all libraries statically.

Any pointers are very much appreciated :). We are primarily Windows devs, so I know there are gonna be a few things we aren't doing the Mac way at first.

Thank you!

- Alejandro
Alejandro S. Canosa
Three Minds Software

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Kanchou
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Re: Mac Beta Feedback

Post by Kanchou » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:06 pm

stefanstr wrote:Hey team.

Finally, a Mac beta! Which means I'm back. A pity it's at a period in my life when I have so little free time for hobbies so I won't be able to dive into OWM as much as I'd like to. Some initial feedback though:
Things change a lot in 3+ years. Seems the people that were most active with feedback early on aren't around much anymore, hopefully in your case lack of free time is for a good reason :)
stefanstr wrote: 2) do you have plans for including OWM in the Mac App Store once it's ready? It would give you some free publicity and make it easier to manage versions/updates - but I don't know if the sandboxed environment you need to publish to the App Store is something you can abide by.
Sandboxed enviroment wouldn't be an issue. We have to investigate more, it will really depends on how Apple conducts business. We considered distributing through Steam, but their fees (30%) and the fact that they can randomly put your app on sale we weren't confortable with.
stefanstr wrote: 3) I'm also getting the "debugging check failed" error as another user mentioned and I think I know what the problem is: it mentions the path /Users/alejandro so it's obvious you hard-coded your user folder somewhere in the debugging tools or whatever you're using. The first time I got it was when I tried to create a new map with Command+N.

4) Clicking "delete/backspace" doesn't delete selected objects. Is that intentional? Same with Cmd+Z for Undo.
These two are known issues. Didn't have time to figure them out before the release.
stefanstr wrote: 5) Not necessarily Mac-specific but I can't figure out how to connect corridors to rooms in the dungeon tool?
We'll be adding that with future releases - it's not there in Windows either.
stefanstr wrote: 6) When I closed a new unsaved map and chose not to save it, OWM crashed on me.
7) "New Map from Template" doesn't do anything when chosen from the initial dialog box. Works when selected from the menu.
Noted. Ty!
Alejandro S. Canosa
Three Minds Software

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Kanchou
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Re: Mac Beta Feedback

Post by Kanchou » Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:04 pm

stefanstr wrote: 8) I would expect trackpad gestures to work - currently they don't. (Pinch to zoom and two-finger rotate at the minimum.)
Didn't think about it to be honest. We'll add it as a feature request.
stefanstr wrote: 9) Not Mac-related but how do I know which version of OWM I have? I was a Kickstarter backer and I have no idea if I have all the artwork or if I'd need to purchase some expansions to have it all. Maybe this is something you might integrate with the app and make it easier to find and purchase stuff from the app itself.
Right now there are two "real" versions and a weird one. The two real ones are the Expansion (all tools and all the artwork minus the add ons) and the Basic version (only overland tools, no Expansion artwork). Those two are easy to tell and the splash/about shows it.

Then there is the "basic" version from the Kickstarter, that is really just the Expansion version with limited artwork. Very few people have this version since most people went with the Expansion during the Kickstarter and or upgraded later.

You have the Expansion with all the expansion artwork. The Add Ons in the website are extra.
stefanstr wrote: 10) I feel that the artwork symbols, landmass type previews, etc., are too big and too few of them fit in the menu on the right. Not sure what is the standard on Windows but I only see 2.5 symbols horizontally and 2 symbols vertically in the standard menu size.
Sounds good. We are gonna add the option to change sizes in the view soon (i.e. large, medium and small). OSX is also weird in that those list controls scroll horizontally and not vertically.
We're going to try changing so that it behaves like in Windows.
stefanstr wrote: 11) I ran into an issue with the mercator transverse projection. While switching to it from the default, it visually loses a landmass on a map with two landmasses. It's still there in the object list but becomes invisible. The problem persists
Will investigate. Thank you!
stefanstr wrote: 12) The app sometimes freezes when it gets too much input too quickly but I couldn't pin-point if there's a specific thing that triggers this.
13) The app always freezes for me when trying to complete a landmass with a right-click when in the "fit-to-screen" view.
Sounds like performance issues... we'll need to do some optimization we haven't had a change to do in OSX.

Thank you for the feedback!!!

- Alejandro
Alejandro S. Canosa
Three Minds Software

stefanstr
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Mac Beta Feedback

Post by stefanstr » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:11 am

Kanchou wrote: Any pointers are very much appreciated :). We are primarily Windows devs, so I know there are gonna be a few things we aren't doing the Mac way at first.
I'm not a dev so I don't know all the intricacies of app distribution but what you say makes sense and might be the reason why Mac apps are distributed as .dmg and not .zip. .dmg is just the Mac version of an .iso file so it might be you don't even have to sign it as it is not altering or compressing the executable itself. You'll have to try and see, I guess. An installer is definitely not "the Mac way" though and feels suspicious. Installers are mainly used for big apps that have to alter something low-level so using an installer gives off the impression that you want to mess with my system files.

"The Mac way" is to have a .dmg file that integrates a shortcut to the Application folder so you can drag it there directly from the .dmg when you mount it. Or, you know, the Mac app store. Apple does take its share of revenue, though, not sure if it's the same %
Kanchou wrote:
stefanstr wrote:Hey team.
Things change a lot in 3+ years. Seems the people that were most active with feedback early on aren't around much anymore, hopefully in your case lack of free time is for a good reason :)
Definitely good reasons. I have a child and more responsibilities at my current job. Full steam ahead. :)
Kanchou wrote: Didn't think about it to be honest. We'll add it as a feature request.
Mac trackpads are amazing and their use is pervasive in the ecosystem. Lack of trackpad support feels really odd on a Mac. I never missed it in the Windows version but on my Mac, I noticed it in the first minute of usage...

Thanks for the other comments and explanations, too. Looking forward to the next build to see what's new. :) One last question: are the save files going to be compatible between versions going forward or are some changes to be expected?

stefanstr
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Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Mac Beta Feedback

Post by stefanstr » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:12 am

Kanchou wrote: Any pointers are very much appreciated :). We are primarily Windows devs, so I know there are gonna be a few things we aren't doing the Mac way at first.
I'm not a dev so I don't know all the intricacies of app distribution but what you say makes sense and might be the reason why Mac apps are distributed as .dmg and not .zip. .dmg is just the Mac version of an .iso file so it might be you don't even have to sign it as it is not altering or compressing the executable itself. You'll have to try and see, I guess. An installer is definitely not "the Mac way" though and feels suspicious. Installers are mainly used for big apps that have to alter something low-level so using an installer gives off the impression that you want to mess with my system files.

"The Mac way" is to have a .dmg file that integrates a shortcut to the Application folder so you can drag it there directly from the .dmg when you mount it. Or, you know, the Mac app store. Apple does take its share of revenue, though, not sure if it's the same %
Kanchou wrote:
stefanstr wrote:Hey team.


Definitely good reasons. I have a child and more responsibilities at my current job. Full steam ahead. :)
Mac trackpads are amazing and their use is pervasive in the ecosystem. Lack of trackpad support feels really odd on a Mac. I never missed it in the Windows version but on my Mac, I noticed it in the first minute of usage...

Thanks for the other comments and explanations, too. Looking forward to the next build to see what's new. :) One last question: are the save files going to be compatible between versions going forward or are some changes to be expected?[/quote]

stefanstr
Posts: 108
Joined: Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:25 pm

Re: Mac Beta Feedback

Post by stefanstr » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:13 am

stefanstr wrote:
Kanchou wrote: Any pointers are very much appreciated :). We are primarily Windows devs, so I know there are gonna be a few things we aren't doing the Mac way at first.
I'm not a dev so I don't know all the intricacies of app distribution but what you say makes sense and might be the reason why Mac apps are distributed as .dmg and not .zip. .dmg is just the Mac version of an .iso file so it might be you don't even have to sign it as it is not altering or compressing the executable itself. You'll have to try and see, I guess. An installer is definitely not "the Mac way" though and feels suspicious. Installers are mainly used for big apps that have to alter something low-level so using an installer gives off the impression that you want to mess with my system files.

"The Mac way" is to have a .dmg file that integrates a shortcut to the Application folder so you can drag it there directly from the .dmg when you mount it. Or, you know, the Mac app store. Apple does take its share of revenue, though, not sure if it's the same % as on Steam.

As for trackpad support, Mac trackpads are amazing and their use is pervasive in the ecosystem. Lack of trackpad support feels really odd on a Mac. I never missed it in the Windows version but on my Mac, I noticed it in the first minute of usage...

Thanks for the other comments and explanations, too. Looking forward to the next build to see what's new. :) One last question: are the save files going to be compatible between versions going forward or are some changes to be expected?

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